Can anyone give me any information on the following print/painting

JessCole · August 3rd, 2011, 09:12 PM

They have been in my family for as long as I can remember and I have always found them to be oddly interesting.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/65958336@N03/6007394230/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/6595833...n/photostream/

Any information I could find on these would be greatly appreciated.

ARTalker · September 7th, 2011, 09:12 AM

I've just joined the Art Conversation and saw your post. So, this is my first Art Conversation. I love to research and talk about paintings.

At first glance, I wonder if they might not be by George Caleb Bingham (1811-1879). Many of Bingham's paintings depict life in Missouri and along the American Frontier. Some of his most well-known works contain men who worked the flatboats (The Jolly Flatboatmen) and traders (Fur Traders Descending the Missouri), and overall are about people engaged in the everyday life of the area where he painted (genre scenes like The Country Election or The Squatters). It is in this last group that I think your paintings, if by Bingham, might fit.

Your works contain the same color-families that Bingham was known for...those rusts, earth tones, bright blues and oranges...you'll see those colors in many of his works. And the faces seem very much like those you find in a Bingham painting.

Another thought: William Sidney Mount.

Good luck and do reply if you get it figured out as I'd love to know what you learn.

JessCole · September 20th, 2011, 10:08 PM

Thank you so much for that information - it gives me something to work with.

Many thanks

:-) Jess

November 22nd, 2011, 11:36 AM

As an art historian and museum curator I can say that there is no way these pictures are by Bingham or Mount. They seem much later in both style and content. The first seems to show a man and boy in 18th century dress apprehensive of a well dressed, sophisticated black man seated near them. The white males seem to be traveling, perhaps in a boat. The second picture shows 2 women in post civil war dress on a train car. The ladies are uncomfortable about the nearness of a sleeping man with dark skin and a turban.

The pictures are obviously related in theme, and seem designed to mock racial prejudices in a relatively sophisticated way that seems very 20th century in spirit. It is possible that they satirize British manners. British racism has roots in colonial activities in the West Indies and India, both of which may be referenced here.

I also wonder if the images might be part of a series of satirical pictures dealing with racial interactions through the centuries. My guess is that they are by an artist (perhaps British) who did illustration work for magazines and books sometime between 1925 and 1965.

Hope this helps!

ARTalker · February 9th, 2012, 06:51 AM

My original reply was my first ever on Art Conversation and I guess I was so excited by the "conversation" and those colors seemed so familiar that I completely forgot to look at that important hint - costume!

Unregistered is clearly knowledgeable. Both artists I suggested (Bingham & Mount) were born in the early 1800's and lived to see the end of the Civil War. But as Unregistered notes, these could be much later, satirical pokes at past prejudices.

Hope I didn't send anyone on a wild goose chase and thank heavens for Art Conversation which allows for corrections like this!

Thanks, Unregistered!

saintmarc · February 10th, 2012, 07:07 AM

Thanks to Art talker.It is a good idea to bump this thread up because I have that in my library. It was published in a french periodical of the era 1880/1900 like " master works of art" or something like that. The first time I saw this question I was too much busy to open the box I archived these in and after some days I had lost the link. I will answer the next week. One thing absolutely sure. The original paintings are german.

saintmarc · 07:08 PM

Both were published in the number 11 of "Les Tableaux Célèbres du Monde" (famous paintings of the world), around 1895. The publisher was Bryan, Taylor and CO. New-York, Paris, Berlin.
In french, they are called "en première classe" (man who sleep on the shoulder of the lady). The other "en troisième classe". Sotheby's sold the two (paintings or engravings or copies after) in 1998 with the title "a mysterious traveller" maybe with the same title for both items.
An examplary of the book, also published with all issues in one vol.
http://www.todocoleccion.net/les-tab...undo~x28627859

The artist is Friedrich Peter Hiddemann, born Dusseldorf on october,4,1829 and died Dusseldorf january,19,1892.

August 3rd, 2011, 09:12 PM	#1
JessCole Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 2	Can anyone give me any information on the following print/painting They have been in my family for as long as I can remember and I have always found them to be oddly interesting. http://www.flickr.com/photos/65958336@N03/6007394230/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/6595833...n/photostream/ Any information I could find on these would be greatly appreciated.

September 7th, 2011, 09:12 AM	#2
ARTalker Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 25	A painting by Bingham or Mount perhaps... I've just joined the Art Conversation and saw your post. So, this is my first Art Conversation. I love to research and talk about paintings. At first glance, I wonder if they might not be by George Caleb Bingham (1811-1879). Many of Bingham's paintings depict life in Missouri and along the American Frontier. Some of his most well-known works contain men who worked the flatboats (The Jolly Flatboatmen) and traders (Fur Traders Descending the Missouri), and overall are about people engaged in the everyday life of the area where he painted (genre scenes like The Country Election or The Squatters). It is in this last group that I think your paintings, if by Bingham, might fit. Your works contain the same color-families that Bingham was known for...those rusts, earth tones, bright blues and oranges...you'll see those colors in many of his works. And the faces seem very much like those you find in a Bingham painting. Another thought: William Sidney Mount. Good luck and do reply if you get it figured out as I'd love to know what you learn.

November 22nd, 2011, 11:36 AM	#4
Unregistered Posts: n/a	Later than Mount or Bingham As an art historian and museum curator I can say that there is no way these pictures are by Bingham or Mount. They seem much later in both style and content. The first seems to show a man and boy in 18th century dress apprehensive of a well dressed, sophisticated black man seated near them. The white males seem to be traveling, perhaps in a boat. The second picture shows 2 women in post civil war dress on a train car. The ladies are uncomfortable about the nearness of a sleeping man with dark skin and a turban. The pictures are obviously related in theme, and seem designed to mock racial prejudices in a relatively sophisticated way that seems very 20th century in spirit. It is possible that they satirize British manners. British racism has roots in colonial activities in the West Indies and India, both of which may be referenced here. I also wonder if the images might be part of a series of satirical pictures dealing with racial interactions through the centuries. My guess is that they are by an artist (perhaps British) who did illustration work for magazines and books sometime between 1925 and 1965. Hope this helps!

February 10th, 2012, 11:02 AM	#7
saintmarc Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 345	Both were published in the number 11 of "Les Tableaux Célèbres du Monde" (famous paintings of the world), around 1895. The publisher was Bryan, Taylor and CO. New-York, Paris, Berlin. In french, they are called "en première classe" (man who sleep on the shoulder of the lady). The other "en troisième classe". Sotheby's sold the two (paintings or engravings or copies after) in 1998 with the title "a mysterious traveller" maybe with the same title for both items. An examplary of the book, also published with all issues in one vol. http://www.todocoleccion.net/les-tab...undo~x28627859 The artist is Friedrich Peter Hiddemann, born Dusseldorf on october,4,1829 and died Dusseldorf january,19,1892. Last edited by saintmarc : February 10th, 2012 at 07:08 PM.

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September 20th, 2011, 10:08 PM	#3
JessCole Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 2	Thank you so much for that information - it gives me something to work with. Many thanks :-) Jess

February 9th, 2012, 06:51 AM	#5
ARTalker Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 25	My original reply was my first ever on Art Conversation and I guess I was so excited by the "conversation" and those colors seemed so familiar that I completely forgot to look at that important hint - costume! Unregistered is clearly knowledgeable. Both artists I suggested (Bingham & Mount) were born in the early 1800's and lived to see the end of the Civil War. But as Unregistered notes, these could be much later, satirical pokes at past prejudices. Hope I didn't send anyone on a wild goose chase and thank heavens for Art Conversation which allows for corrections like this! Thanks, Unregistered!

February 10th, 2012, 07:07 AM	#6
saintmarc Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 345	Thanks to Art talker.It is a good idea to bump this thread up because I have that in my library. It was published in a french periodical of the era 1880/1900 like " master works of art" or something like that. The first time I saw this question I was too much busy to open the box I archived these in and after some days I had lost the link. I will answer the next week. One thing absolutely sure. The original paintings are german.