Any ideas?

se10is · August 14th, 2011, 10:33 AM

This is a painting that has been in the family for many years, but no one is still living who can shed any light on it. The plaque on the frame obviously says Brueghel, but it has not been found in his works. One suggestion is that perhaps a follower of his did the painting ... it is done on copper and is very similar to some of his paintings. I am not seeing a date or a signature. It is in a large frame covered with glass, so I am not able to get a very good photo of it. I have been trying to find some one to give me advise on how to go about authenticating it. Does anyone have any ideas? Thank you!

John · August 14th, 2011, 01:05 PM

If it's an original oil painting on copper, then there won't be any record of it unless it's a copy. I'm skeptical it could be an original Jan Brueghel I, because (a) his paintings are highly valuable and don't just pop up every day, and (b) he is one of the most sublime artists of the period (and one of my favorites) and this work does not appear to be up to his standard.

I checked TinEye and Google Images, and did not see any indication that it's a copy of a well known painting. But the photograph is dark and quite small, so these tools could easily have missed something.

thatcomedian · August 14th, 2011, 01:48 PM

It looks like a copy of part of this painting
http://www.bridgemanart.com/image/Br...=15&page =123

John · August 14th, 2011, 05:57 PM

Wow, I'll never know how you tracked that down. I never did manage to find it in Google. Knowing that it was in the Museum of Picardie, I looked in the French RMN (Reunion des Musees Nationaux) database and found a larger version.

BTW, they have it listed as "atelier of" Jan Brueghel, so it's possible he sold it under his own name but it's not believed to be by Brueghel himself.

se10is · August 15th, 2011, 08:07 AM

wow is right....I have searched and searched and even had a few people "in the know" search! Thanks to both of you....not sure what this means! (just that I have a copy of part of a famous painting?) I certainly appreciate your help!

August 16th, 2011, 05:11 PM

Hi, I'm the original poster's SIL. Does anyone know what it means to own "a copy ... of a portion ... of a Master's work?" How common is/was it to copy a piece of someone else's art? Or could it be that the artist originally copied the entire painting and someone else came along later and cut it into smaller pieces for sale? (remember it is painted on a copper sheet, so cutting it apart is feasible.)

John · August 16th, 2011, 07:16 PM

The original seems to be at the Musee de Picardie in France, so one way or another this is going to be a copy. Up to the early 20th century (i.e. before the advent of color reproductions), hand-painting copies was very common. This painting could have been done contemporaneously with the original, or it could have been done quite recently. It can be quite hard to determine which.

I'm no expert and the only thing that jumps out at me is that if it was painted on copper then it is probably pretty old. An art dealer or art appraiser should be able to tell you more.

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August 14th, 2011, 01:05 PM	#2
John John Malyon, host Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 2,401	If it's an original oil painting on copper, then there won't be any record of it unless it's a copy. I'm skeptical it could be an original Jan Brueghel I, because (a) his paintings are highly valuable and don't just pop up every day, and (b) he is one of the most sublime artists of the period (and one of my favorites) and this work does not appear to be up to his standard. I checked TinEye and Google Images, and did not see any indication that it's a copy of a well known painting. But the photograph is dark and quite small, so these tools could easily have missed something.

August 14th, 2011, 01:48 PM	#3
thatcomedian Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: San Pedro, CA Posts: 210	It looks like a copy of part of this painting http://www.bridgemanart.com/image/Br...=15&page =123

August 14th, 2011, 05:57 PM	#4
John John Malyon, host Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 2,401	Wow, I'll never know how you tracked that down. I never did manage to find it in Google. Knowing that it was in the Museum of Picardie, I looked in the French RMN (Reunion des Musees Nationaux) database and found a larger version. BTW, they have it listed as "atelier of" Jan Brueghel, so it's possible he sold it under his own name but it's not believed to be by Brueghel himself.

August 15th, 2011, 08:07 AM	#5
se10is Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 7	wow is right....I have searched and searched and even had a few people "in the know" search! Thanks to both of you....not sure what this means! (just that I have a copy of part of a famous painting?) I certainly appreciate your help!

August 16th, 2011, 05:11 PM	#6
Unregistered Posts: n/a	Hi, I'm the original poster's SIL. Does anyone know what it means to own "a copy ... of a portion ... of a Master's work?" How common is/was it to copy a piece of someone else's art? Or could it be that the artist originally copied the entire painting and someone else came along later and cut it into smaller pieces for sale? (remember it is painted on a copper sheet, so cutting it apart is feasible.)

August 16th, 2011, 07:16 PM	#7
John John Malyon, host Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 2,401	The original seems to be at the Musee de Picardie in France, so one way or another this is going to be a copy. Up to the early 20th century (i.e. before the advent of color reproductions), hand-painting copies was very common. This painting could have been done contemporaneously with the original, or it could have been done quite recently. It can be quite hard to determine which. I'm no expert and the only thing that jumps out at me is that if it was painted on copper then it is probably pretty old. An art dealer or art appraiser should be able to tell you more.