help identify the source for this European subject image on Chinese bowl c1745

rubisco · August 20th, 2011, 04:27 PM

I would appreciate any help with identifying either the subject or the source for this image.

It is on a large punchbowl, made in China circa 1745 for export to the West. The image is unrecorded in any books on Chinese export porcelain. A print or a drawing would have been taken out to Canton for the Chinese enamellers to use.

The costume/hat/hair of the man looks 16th century north European - possibly German? It appears to depict a surrender of a castle or a significant historical event. Is the castle also identifiable?

The interior of the bowl has an 18th century style roundel of a woman with grapes, labelled AUTUMN, painted en grisaille - though this may be totally unrelated to the polychrome image on the outside of the bowl.

Any ideas?

T-M · August 21st, 2011, 06:02 PM

The women in the picture look to be wearing Tudor era clothing (between 1485 and 1603), but the gent is saying Eastern European/Russian to me.

Will keep digging. Dont want to give you too many false leads

rubisco · August 23rd, 2011, 05:46 AM

many thanks - but who could it be?

Quite separately someone has suggested that the costume, hair and plumed hat of the man could be Spanish, late 17th C!

Also wonder if the castle is identifiable - there is a rather odd neoclassical portico in it.

Could it be Heidelberg which was attacked several times in the 17th century, especially in the 30 years war? The basic shape is close - though most large castles look the same! Could the thin tower on the far left be the Church of the Holy Spirit in Heidelberg?

The tents around the castle suggest that there was seige of some sort, though the castle looks in quite good order! Perhaps the tower on the right has lost a conical roof?

I am used to trying to track down sources for European subject images on 18th C Chinese export porcelain - but this one has me stumped so far!

Many thanks

Eirene · August 23rd, 2011, 12:04 PM

Does the flag on the castle depict a lion?

John · August 23rd, 2011, 12:37 PM

Yes, perhaps, suddenly I can see that. Perhaps the bowl depicts Richard Lion-Heart in the Holy Land?

Eirene · August 23rd, 2011, 04:51 PM

Carcassonne France?

rubisco · August 24th, 2011, 01:15 AM

The flag is not clear - I don't have the bowl yet - only the auction images from the net. The bowl will arrive in about three weeks! I can post better images after that.

However the flag looks like it is just shaded. I don't think it is a lion, alas!

The whole of this image is repeated on the other side of the bowl: the castle is slightly better enamelled and I attach two details.

I will have look at Carcassonne in detail - certainly the topography looks similar.

The interior of the bowl has an unrelated image, which I also attach in case anyone can identify that too! I have looked through the British Museum online catalogue of prints but this one is not there - though the subject is a popular one in the 18th C. (The bowl was made circa 1745)

I really appreciate the help - in the world of Chinese export porcelain collecting this is quite an exciting new discovery!

Many thanks
Will

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August 21st, 2011, 06:02 PM	#2
T-M Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 14	The women in the picture look to be wearing Tudor era clothing (between 1485 and 1603), but the gent is saying Eastern European/Russian to me. Will keep digging. Dont want to give you too many false leads

August 23rd, 2011, 05:46 AM	#3
rubisco Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3	many thanks - but who could it be? Quite separately someone has suggested that the costume, hair and plumed hat of the man could be Spanish, late 17th C! Also wonder if the castle is identifiable - there is a rather odd neoclassical portico in it. Could it be Heidelberg which was attacked several times in the 17th century, especially in the 30 years war? The basic shape is close - though most large castles look the same! Could the thin tower on the far left be the Church of the Holy Spirit in Heidelberg? The tents around the castle suggest that there was seige of some sort, though the castle looks in quite good order! Perhaps the tower on the right has lost a conical roof? I am used to trying to track down sources for European subject images on 18th C Chinese export porcelain - but this one has me stumped so far! Many thanks

August 23rd, 2011, 12:04 PM	#4
Eirene Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 624	Does the flag on the castle depict a lion?

August 23rd, 2011, 12:37 PM	#5
John John Malyon, host Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 2,401	Yes, perhaps, suddenly I can see that. Perhaps the bowl depicts Richard Lion-Heart in the Holy Land?

August 23rd, 2011, 04:51 PM	#6
Eirene Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 624	Carcassonne France?